[pnpgm] Assassin/Exeuctioner

Wed Aug 10 22:41:02 CEST 2011

Just a reply to the posts made.  Figured more would have come in.  But two is fine.  I made some comments in the update I'm working on but fo rnow think of it the big issue of experience as too free.  Anyone can slice a throat yet they earn 10 point sfor that if d10 is good.  Seems too much.  But if hte guy does a fancy execution to impress a King sure then 10 is worth it.  That's the big issue I have.  Experience doens't merit the actual result wise.  

The comments are few and not really specific.  Sorry.  Was distracted.  But I did get to them.  They are below.  David/Kell can read the others can ignore if they wish to.

This is on the link for this topic on the links page.  The reply at the bottom of the skill topic.

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Replies on comments on skill topic...

Subject: Re: [pnpgm] Assassin/Executioner skills X-BeenThere: pnpgm at abroere.xs4all.nl

Perhaps the availability of the axe, or noose, plus weakened or drugged
prisoners, plus assistants/guards...etc...would make the task 'easy'...
but being in the field, with the superior strength of the prisoner, the
size of the creature or humanoid, or the experience the executioner has
with the species, etc, might make the difficulty much greater.

> Yes.  Experience does matter.  I agree with the above. 

Yes, you can kill a person that's not bound, but that's not the skill.
The skill is only bound or helpless.  An unbound, aware person is going
to do/see something...the executioner isn't an assassin, after all.  He's
not skilled in stealth...just talking your ear off...figuratively and
really...(eewww...gross)

>  The problem is "helpless".  That definition is huge and extensive.
<  A person can be helpless without seeing the guy coming for him.
>  An executioner can kill a person who is helpless and unaware.  So
>  The problem is where does the skill come in compared to other skills
>  like Assassin?

There doesn't seem to be a reason to make two sub-groups of executioners,
either.  Why can't one person be both?  When he has the tools and
environment, he kills easily (or at least succeeds in his skill roll) and
in the field, under less than perfect conditions, his chance of success,
and gaing expertise points, falls.

> There is no difference in experience earned.  I'm just saying i can see
>  the skill in 2 different areas.  Just like many skills sub parts make
>  the spell more elaborate.  

It's all a matter of defining the difficulty of the situation.  Which
has to be done for ALL non-combat skills.

>  Yep.  As well as all skills.  That part of the game is easy to me.
>  Its the how best to award the results of these 2 skills.  

As for the assassin...the same applies.  Does the character set up or
have the situation to make the assassination easier or is it near
impossible because of the guards and traps and awareness of the target?

>  The better the setup the better chance and reward.  As with any skill.
>  So planning helps.  Just walking into a room and shipping a dagger out
>  in haste might not be the best course at times.  

As for the 'well, anybody could do that' arguments...yes, they can...but
the assassins (and executioners!) are TRAINED to do it, and do it well.
Anybody can grab a sword and kill someone with it...but a TRAINED
swordsman is FAR better at it.

>  i agree. My whole point is that the award and experience is a bit
>  more a mess to give out than most skills.  It takes more judgement.

dave S

[Post edited out which covers the core document]

------------------------****** Post from Kell ******----------------

Subject: Re: [pnpgm] Assassin/Executioner skills X-BeenThere: pnpgm at abroere.xs4all.nl

Assassin - a point that was hinted at, but never actually addressed -
poisons, complex plans, and other less combat oriented ways where the
assassination cannot be detected.  The way I see it, the skilled assassin
can do things up to and including:
Plan the entire "night" or "time before" the actual assassination.  Target
is A.  Friends are B and C.  Eliminating B and C pays a bonus.  Skilled
assassin then decides the best place & time is at the big party that A
B C attend.  Planning includes splitting the targets, poisoning B first
with something in drink, something that makes B appear sick.  So now B
and C go to a room to help B.  Then the poison kills B.  C is distraught.
Assassin uses the distraction to blow dart C.
   Now B and C are dead, leaving A.  

> Smart one would simply get B and C pitted against each other.  They
> fight.   Get A involved trying to break up the fight.  B and C fight
> A and kill A then fight each other.  Classic turncoat example without
> even dong a bit of work.  Drugpin A gets word C is stealing and blames
> B so A kills C for stealing and then beats up B.  B fights back and
> kills A and B is easy prey to finish off. Etc. The more elaborat the
> best experience.

A is still in the big party, looking for B & C.   Assassin pays someone,
G, at party to tell A where B & C went plus freshen A's drink.  Unbeknownst
to G, the drink also contains the same poison used on B.  A drinks drink
while going to find B & C.  A gets sick.  Then goes into the room where
B & C are dead.  A gets upset, crying like a little girl.  The assassin
then locks the door w/ A in there, and waits for the poison to finish
the job.  If A is too strong for the poison, there is always alternate 1
- gently suffocating A.  Or alternate 2, the extreme backup - dagger.

>  The problem is the rules of the guild would demand proof or that the
> deed was done. Having another person dong indict assassin might not earn
> the assassin a true payment. 

At the end, when they're found, A and B died of the same sickness.  C
had a massive heart attack.  The assassin on the way out laces the rest
of the punchbowl with a milder form of poison so many others at the party
get sick, and most don't die.  This way, the sickness isn't confined to
the targets.  Now A B C are all gone, assassin completed job, and it
looks as if some kind of punch-born disease/food poisoning hit the entire
party.

Good Job!  Well, kinda...

That is part of what Assassin skill gives.  Probably the "truer" form of
the skill than just increasing ambush chances.    BUT, can a non-assassin
plan and do this? Sure - but odds go down, non-skilled assassin cannot
improvise when things change, etc.

> Says who?  A military person is skilled to improvise.  

Executioner. 
  Killing -  The bound and/or helpless are the key.  Ability to dispatch,
   in a single blow, the bound/helpless victim.  Does free elbows make the
   target not-helpless?

If target is tied up, laying down, unable to squirm/move, target is
helpless.
If target is dazed, standing up and wandering around aimlessly, with
hands bound behind back, target may be helpless.  Likely not, but maybe.
It depends on the target, etc.

> A guy trained well in Martial arts can have hands behind back tied up
> and then kick butt.  So he would nobe be helpless.  I've seen good
> fighers bound arms AND legs and still fight back.  Helpless is subject
> to judgement. 

Torture - that seems pretty straight forward.  Not something generally
done without a known and stated purpose.  Although a variety of methods
exist, I won't go there.
exit

Mark

From: pnpgm-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl [mailto:pnpgm-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of dasandersx at comcast.net Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 6:55 PM
To: pnpgm at abroere.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [pnpgm] Assassin/Executioner skills

Perhaps the availability of the axe, or noose, plus weakened or drugged prisoners, plus assistants/guards...etc...would make the task 'easy'...but being in the field, with the superior strength of the prisoner, the size of the creature or humanoid, or the experience the executioner has with the species, etc, might make the difficulty much greater.

Yes, you can kill a person that's not bound, but that's not the skill.  The skill is only bound or helpless.  An unbound, aware person is going to do/see something...the executioner isn't an assassin, after all.  He's not skilled in stealth...just talking your ear off...figuratively and really...(eewww...gross)  
There doesn't seem to be a reason to make two sub-groups of executioners, either.  Why can't one person be both?  When he has the tools and environment, he kills easily (or at least succeeds in his skill roll) and in the field, under less than perfect conditions, his chance of success, and gaing expertise points, falls.

It's all a matter of defining the difficulty of the situation.  Which has to be done for ALL non-combat skills.

As for the assassin...the same applies.  Does the character set up or have the situation to make the assassination easier or is it near impossible because of the guards and traps and awareness of the target?  

As for the 'well, anybody could do that' arguments...yes, they can...but the assassins (and executioners!) are TRAINED to do it, and do it well.  Anybody can grab a sword and kill someone with it...but a TRAINED swordsman is FAR better at it.

dave S

[Post edited out/removed as duplicate of original document]