[pnpgm] Game Update #110a - File #620 - Recap...
Scott Adams
longshot at darktech.org
Fri Feb 6 06:19:31 CET 2009
HT Alias/Player Character Name Type Status/Notes Sex
-- -----------------------------------------------------------------
R1 John Haight...........Arawn.............Druid .Normal/Alfar Ma
?? Chris Wells...........Ben'dar...........Warrior.Normal/Human Ma
R1 Tom Corckett..........Caladan...........Wizard Normal/Human Ma
W2 Marcel Liberty........Chion.............Sailor..Normal/Human Ma
-- Tobie Bonahoom........Fremea............Sidh....NormalFaerry Fe
Do David Sanders.........Kiet.Sunan........Acrobat Normal/Human Ma
R? J H Hooten............Raban.Usherwood...Bard....Normal/Human..Ma
W4 Wout Broere...........Unali.............Ninja...Normal/Human Fe
R4 Alex Koponen..........Z'leyra...........Healer..Normal/Human Fe
Animals: Corona [Eagle] Z'leyra, Boyzdar [Wolf] (Strie'bog),
Game Web Site - http://www.funport.com/longshot/pbem
Public posts/actions to pnpgm at abroere.xs4all.nl (mailing list)
Private emails (not public actions) to longshot at darktech.org
Game Update #110a in sequence (file #620)
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Admin Notes: None.
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[Recap]
From Z'leyra: [Re: Actions]
Z'leyra/Alex change vote to method #1.
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Kiet: [Re: Actions]
Kiet is in a sassy mood, now that he's of that flying pile of
rubble. He suggests that we all dice for the items...none of
them are especially important, or so he believes, except for
maybe the flag...and I think it and the uniforms should remain
together no matter who gets them.
[*** Conflicted info deleted for space ***]
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Arawn: [Re: Actions]
Arawn is fine with giving the items away to anyone who wants
them, so go ahead and add them to their character sheets. Books
and other items of lore, like the map, that he has expressed
interest in are, for the most part, important to him for the
knowledge they might share and he'd be happy to pass them to
another in the party so long as he'd have the opportunity to
study (and if they are later sold, copy) them. His mindset is
that as long there is some potential use for an item it would
probably be more useful to keep it where the group can access it.
[*** Kiet's post deleted for space ***]
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Fremea: [Re: Actions]
Fremea would rather just have no one on the island when it is
time to get the Seker out. She can fly without lose of anything
(and she is not hurt much). Her teleport abilities will get her
to where she needs to be and the party is needed to protect the
treasure, plus make sure the prisoners are kept safe (for now -
evil grin). She will bring the collar back with her for Raban.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Her vote for loot is still the same. As for Arawn getting the
armor, she believes that it should go to him. Mostly because he
will represent us at other times, with his knowledge and this
can be even more proof of his station. As for him giving up loot
for it, well that will be up to him. Mostly Fremea sees that this
will improve our chances of getting more treasure later on. And
there are other disadvantages to him having the armor, besides
us not getting gold for it.
GM: Ack. Thanks.
--------------------------
From Raban: [Re: Actions]
<That is a problem with PnP treasures, the wide variations in
price for items. Thus value for share depends on where you could
sell it. But is the Armor really worth 7500? PnP Plate is
expensive to start with because it takes a long time to make,
now consider that a mage is supposed to make that himself. What
is that time worth? Then its elven making it rarer etc. So yup
its damn expensive, so much so who could afford it. And that is
the problem, its unlikely you will find a buyer on the world!
Maybe extraplaner elvish royals could afford it? And adventure
all its own. I still think some rough value needs to be placed
on it and based on what it could be sold for if we tried. But
that would be much lower. Is that really fair? Someone could
take it to resell elsewhere for a huge profit. But thats true
for everything if someone wants to play merchant to that
extreme. Other games assume you can get 25%-50% of sell price
in a reasonable amount of time, so that is a fair price in
general. Cash is cash, magic worth what it could sell for in a
short time. But without much effort the maximum value cannot be
gotten on much of the items and thus the armor is the major
item. So for this extreme case its very hard to be fair. I
would let him have the item and owe some reasonable amount for
it, or use it til it could be sold. BUT do not forget possession
of the armor could cause major conflict with elves or others for
its extreme rarity. And a non elf wearing it could have political
problems. It could even be a cultural ' treasure' for even more
problems. So once more an Alfar seems the only one who should
wear it and trying to sell it could be a problem... A GM could
turn that into the next adventure if we are not careful. No
matter how its handled it can cause trouble which is why this
effects play. Personally I always thought plate cost way too
much in the system. You can hire it made far cheaper than it
costs and Dwarf or Elf make should not be worth 40 or 60 times
just like magic is not worth 100 times. You can hire a 20th
level mage to make plate cheaper than buying it normally and
have enchanted?
So yes the elf plate is worth a few hundred but not many thousand
gold unless elves would need to be forced to make it or other
difficulty and then it would carry a stigmata for more troubles.
But not my world so cant say true economics and political
pricing. I personally think items should be valued based on
time and material costs and mana is a material for this. The
mages time is worth so much and his mana is worth some factor
based on Mel in general and maybe more based on recovery time.
Heavy mana use could take a long time to get back. The other
guides (Mel+El)*something does this a little. Mel silver per
mana could be close? Maybe a bit more than that, needs some test
items for comparisons. Maybe someone will run some tests for
approx item price versus mana needed to make and see.>
<Sorry should not have wandered so far off course. In summary,
if Armor was not so super high value then its not such a big
deal. Since most magic I have seen priced in our current game
were fairly low priced, that seems more likely. Then the other
game effects make the item worth keeping in the party and used
with Arawn owing some future cash for it and not crippling
amounts. BUT even if it is high priced it may make little
difference if no one can buy it since it is thus worthless! LOL
or was that priceless? Same effect. So the result is nearly the
same with all methods, its best if he keeps it but how much
should he owe? Thats what the vote will really determine as I
see it.>
<So overall it becomes more important to determine what is a
fair price/value for items to use in the shares or it all falls
apart. Fair sell value should be what can be gotten in a
reasonable time trying to sell it. If its hard to sell then
that value will drop. If someone wants to purchase a hard to
sell item for the discount and try to sell it themselves that
is fair for that reason. They are short cash for some time as
its tied up and thus they have less other equipment etc.
Eventually they will make a profit but was it worth the delay?
Yes player merchants can make a fortune but so do the ones
actively spending time doing other work instead of searching
for a buyer. It may all balance out anyway. And this valuation
is determined inside the party in actuality. The mages would
have a rough idea on magic item values, other people may know
other items. For us the GM is doing that work since we do not
know his rules on pricing. But you get the idea. Its always a
gamble, you may end up selling for a loss when hoarding items
and suddenly needing cash. The next problem is those items you
cant price accurately. Art and rare books vary a lot, well many
things do in PnP.
If the party guesses wrong and someone takes the item the gamble
could be quite a lot. This is another GM ruling on your skill
identifying the items and your previous history of such. If you
do not know, someone will be surprised. A shrewd buyer may rob
you blind more than once before you find out. Thats where those
contacts come in handy, finding more honest buyers. If people
do not want to RP so much normally behind the scenes things
then should they get to do so for those other items?
Its a complex problem overall. Which to me means, if the share
method is too hard to figure then it may not be worth using in
this system. Just try to balance it out in play somehow.>
<Apologies for the long post, hope it helps? Maybe the GM will
shoot me instead....>
<Raban will go with where he is needed. If he ended up on the
ground then he will stay there to help out. Frema may not be
able to teleport with him and Raban knows that since there were
issues with an expert teleporter. So even though he would like
to stay with her it may not be doable.>
GM: Ack. Prices are relative as you know. I have a simple system
of skill checks, random variations and normal prices. There
could be profits and losses on an item. Chion could sell
an item anywhere on the world in a few hours o vary he
price. But for this situation things are either sold in he
Dark Lands or Marentia. I could role play each situation
and haggle. Bu ha could take weeks and years o do in a pbem.
Some items like special items (books and magic items) can be
done this way but still would take time. This system if
fast and loose - and works. If you wan to revamp the price
system you could work it out on the main pnp list. Who knows
might get it done. The armor for example might be worth
a fleet of ships in one land but a few copper in another and
in the lower world be as common as dirt. So its all relative.
Without going into it much more here I appreciate your comments
here though. I'm just not prepared to work out a value for
the armor or the discount Arawn should take. So we'll see how
it goes later on.
--------------------------
From Ben'dar: [Re: Actions]
I want to clarify Ben'Dar's vote on treasure. He really isn't
that concerned with wealth, just as long as he has sufficient
cash to pay for operations on his ranch. As far as being "fair",
he's thinking that if Arawn gets magical Alfar plate armor,
that's fine, but perhaps it would be fair for him not to take
an equal share of the other treasure at this time. The next
adventure, in Ben'Dar's mind, is a clean slate, so no future
reductions in treasure would be necessary for Arawn. But even
if Arawn decides to take the plate and a fair share of the
treasure, Ben'Dar really isn't going to get bent out of shape
over it. He comes from a barter society and quite frankly,
material wealth isn't a concern to him. (Building a reputation,
on the other hand, is a huge concern for him, and wealth can
certainly help as he works on building his fame as a horse
trainer/trader)
As for the remainder of this adventure, Ben'Dar is suspicious
(as always) of the attack on Sven and more importantly on Tef'wo.
(Sorry, Sven) He is not convinced it is the chaos mage of the
local domain, especially if the High Elder's familiar has been
there. "How do we know that the High Elder didn't stage this
ambush? Perhaps all he wanted from this whole thing was the
magic ring the woman wore? Why didn't his familiar stick around
to help Sven in the fight?" Ben'Dar is clearly upset and seems
to renew his determination to punch out the High Elder as soon
as he sees the man again. "Maybe we shouldn't return to the High
Elder? We have done his dirty work. We've fought many battles
and we have seized our prize. Let's leave this land!"
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Kiet: [Re: Actions]
Kiet says "I do not mind Arawn keeping the strange armor. It
seems to make some sense that he have it (obviously it is no use
to me at 5'-6!). I simply ask that he compensate us all for the
potential richness of the item because it may have so much more
value than all else we have obtained. I am but a poor and humble
sevant, yet in this group I would hope that equality in shares be
observed, especially as I have contributed in no small way and
nearly sacrificed everything."..."And, yes, I am aware I am not
the only one."
"I am uncertain, however, what Arawn might offer to offset such
a potentially massive treasure. I certainly would entertain any
suggestions or ideas on such."
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Raban: [Re: Actions]
<Assuming this occurs where Raban can hear it? If not void it?>
Raban listens to Kiet worry over how much he can get out of this
mission and decides to speak up. "I came simply to protect the
lovely ladies and I am glad I did because I am sure my help kept
them alive. I would like to try the Seker's collar but otherwise
I am not concerned with being paid for my help. Frankly, there
is little I can use due to my size anyway. That is why I make
most my own things. My only other need is heavier armor if I am
going to run into more battles like this one, my leathers were
just for protection from travel mishaps. So if I am getting
anything else, it can be given to whoever needs it. I have
little use
for money, as it just pays for my Bar Tabs, Entertainment, Gifts
and to help anyone I find who needs it. I have always been able
to make whatever money I needed, whenever I needed it. I just
entertain wealthier people for a little while and they give me a
few gold pieces or handfuls of silver. Since I entertain
somewhere nearly every day, I always have plenty to spend...
And Kiet, I am sorry I did not offer you a defensive blessing
when you really needed it. I think it would have prevented your
serious injury had I done so. I suspect that is why I was so
badly injured, my goddess was reminding me of my failures. I
offered only to the Ladies when everyone helps protect everyone
else so everyone should be protected in turn."
<A +4 or 5? boost to DCV that lasts a few days can do wonders to
prevent serious or deadly hits. I do not understand why so few
wanted the blessings.>
<Oh dear, I have forgotten who all Raban did Bless. I suppose a
search can find it.>
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From arawn: [Re: Blessings]
Arawn would've taken the blessings but didn't want to deplete
Raban's mana stores if he had need of it later. For book-
keeping, Arawn has a blessing but it's to Con and Will.
[*** Raban's email deleted for space ***]
GM: Ack. Will consider that a "would have" taken but not to take
one now. :)
--------------------------
From Kiet: [Re: Blessing]
"The taking of a blessing from the practicioner of a god (or
gods) not one's own might not put him in good stead with his
own God(s)."
[*** Arawn/Raban's quoted post deleted for space ***]
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Arawn: [Re: Actions]
As the group made final preparations Arawn visited with Fremea
and the Seker one last time. After a short conversation it became
apparent that the faerie wished to remain alone on the fortified
cloud when it made it's descent into the sea.
"Take care, Fremea. We'll be waiting for you."
"M'sahk," he said, turning to the seker, "I hope all will be well
with you. Give my regards to the Master of the Astral Winds."
------------------------------------------------------------
When word of the attack and the missing ring are told on the
ground below Arawn's brow furrowed. He knelt down beside the
woman, pressed his hand to her forehead as he said a prayer, and
then took a few strands of hair from her head.
"I hope you are right, Sven. The ring was important to A'kril's
plans somehow, though others thought that which was to be traded
was greater still. Still, I am concerned as to the ring's actual
whereabouts in case it wasn't your master's familiar behind all
of this... "And to whom it truly belonged," he added as he
listened to Ben'dar's words.
--------------------------------------------------------
As Fremea wishes to remain behind, alone, Arawn will accompany
the group for now.
------------------------------------------------------------
Arawn listened as the others replied to Kiet's inquiry regarding
the armor in silence for some time, allowing the others to finish
sharing their thoughts. "As and alfar and druid of the sidh I see
the armor as a racial relic of our past, something unknown and
unheard of, and my interest in it is for that and not out of
greed. The creations of the Sidh are often coveted by humans and
I can only guess as to the value some might place upon it in
mortal society and I can only hope that you can see it as more
than just a cash prize and as something important to my kind, as
I would of any relic sacred to a people such as the Z'enda, Katai,
or Vassa.
It's potential defensive properties are not unknown to me and, I
admit, being limited in what I may wear amongst the craftings of
men, that it would prove useful in keeping me alive, and thus
aiding me in assisting to keep others alive, in future adventures.
As to shares, I can live on the charity of the good and by my own
skills and would relinquish what gold will be had. Though a few
coins of silver to purchase some few goods for survival would be
appreciated but can be down without as the group desires."
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Z'leyra: [Re: Actions]
Z'leyra asks Corona to stay close while the party is still in
Chaos claimed territory. She will stay close as well.
Z'leyra will give up claims to bottles, wool cloth and map, but
would like to keep the cloak and silk. Though if equivalent or
better silk is available for purchase she will give up the claim
on the silk as well.
GM: Ack.
--------------------------
From Chion: [Re: Actions]
I might have mis-understood. I thought Awarn wanted the armor
and a share of the armor? Last I knew, when we took plate/chain
from the total, we didn't get the same cash as everyone else. So
I don't see how its been method #1 for the last 9 years... Seems
its been a lot closer to method #2 (plus theiving). I would agree
that Awarn can have the armor in place of his share of treasure.
I don't think he should get his share plus the armor. In that
case Chion pretty well wants to cut it into equal pieces and
have it to study the materials its made out of/cast origin powers
to duplicate the material... etc...
I am not saying Awarn has to play 50+ adventures without getting
any reward, I am saying if he takes the armor it is his share for
this adventure. I know in the past there have been a few items
which we have worked out similarly (the ring Chion wears comes
to mind). Or maybe I just have no idea how much money the party
has... seems Chion only has about 30 gp cash last I checked...
Chion replies, "This is the problem. While it is a racial relic
for you, it is also a racial relic for humans as well. After all,
it is a human who brought you to the place it could be retrieved.
It was humans who brought the flying castle to the Dark Lands. It
was us in the mortal world who helped. We have the additional
problem at this time of not knowing its properties. What if it
changes your disposition to match the previous owners? Do we
accept that? Do we slay you next?" Chion smiles and rubs his
ring, "You see, ancient, unknown artifacts are just that.
Survivors of ages past. Some, or even most, have spirits trapped
within." He glances at his staff in slight annoyance, the smile
disappearing for a second. "I don't think that anyone here wishes
you ill. Nor do we want you to be unarmored in upcoming battles.
We do hope that you appreciate the effort we have put into helping
obtain this invaluable relic. And pray you can see that it is as
valuable an object in interest to humans as it is to Alfar.
Perhaps more so, since it is in the mortal realm when perhaps it
should not be. I would say we should examine it further before
its use and determination of value. Perhaps it shouldn't be used
at all. Perhaps fates have given it to you." Chion smiles at
Awarn, checking to see if he is annoyed yet at the way he is
talking. "I know we can come to some sort of agreement. It is
just a matter of whether we split it into ten pieces for study,
or let you wear it until monsters beat it to peices off you."
GM: Ack. No its been method 1 for all these years. :) He has awhile
back decided NOT to take a share of the other coins. You have
much more cash on hand like 150 gold plus your house. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[New Stuff]
GM: Above is over 500 lines so divided up the update into parts
again for ease of reading. This is just the old posts and
my comments above. Part 2 will be the main update and 3
should be the treasure report.
GM: First I appreciate the public and private comments that I
have gotten on the above topics and the family emergency.
It is appreciated. It is quite clear the majority, even
those who don't agree with the share method, say Arawn should
get the armor with no problems. In essence the item is still
party property and can be used later on for study and any
knowledge gain. I'm glad based on the discussion no one has
gotten really out of shape about it. That could ruin the
whole game over a single piece of item. Technically I didn't
expect this much conflict over the plate. It was a planned
item for later historical research purposes only. In fact I've
not fleshed out the entire properties of the item. :)
All bring good points to the table. As you saw from my last
post the method 2 way brings many issues of bookkeeping among
issues of fair prices. So for the treasure report I'll consider
the armor "invisible" for that purpose and handle the rest.
This still doesn't mean the "unknown" values are known. The
books, odd things like the flag and such can't be valued
in any fair method for the next few months of game time. It
may take YEARS to determine their value. For all the books
could be are books on cooking and be worthless. :)
Many have reminded me of the past 9-10 years of play where
method 1 was used. To reiterate we simply allowed claims.
You picked and choose what you got. If you wanted that
sword or that ring it was yours, no questions asked. There
was no value placed on it and that value wasn't deducted from
the person's personal share. From the REMAINDER of the loot
it was totaled up and divided by number of players for equal
shares minus expenses. The main difference between method 1
and 2 is claims. In method 1 claims are done "tax free"
but in method 2 they are "taxed" (tax being a choice of words
here to demonstrate). That's the big difference. Personally
method 2 means alot more guesswork and bookkeeping for me.
This is why for the last decade it has been easy job. :)
Yes in the past super items like Dwarf Armor or the super
dooper magical item was claimed. Those items might be
well worth the entire treasure found at that time. But
no one had a issue about it. Conflicts were dealt with
in a civilized method.
The first adventure in Clima there was tons of loot from the
captured base because of captured loot by the Clima.s So
folks got rich on that. Rich enough to buy ranches and
manors and houses. Adventure 2 was on the Zen'da plains
and treasure was minimal maybe a few gold per person based
on Ezam's fort and those items found on enemy. Nothing
like Clima. Adventure 3 was in the Vassa forest and even
fewer treasure was found maybe a few gold. This adventure
gave alot due to a castle captured. Adventure #5 due to
the nature of the adventure will be like #3 and there will
be little if any treasure. I say that now since not every
adventure is a king's ransom reward.
With that said based on changed (public) votes and private
comments/votes it looks like it was a tie 4 to 4 for the
both methods. Raban voted for both/either. So again
that makes 5 to 5. Caladan was the hold out as he is
more a npc. Since it is tied I have to make a GM decision.
Based on Caladan's personality, background and history from
being a Zen'da treasure is of little use to him. So based
on that persona he would have to vote for method 1. He
doesn't care if folks claim things and with shares after
that. He would only need some cash to maintain his own
expenses and house. So 6 to 5 method 1 wins. I know this
might upset folks but its clearly a divided issue for the
group. Either way I'm going to upset half the group by
doing this decision. But since it WAS tied I had to
decide it. Now if Caladan was Xian or Triest they'd
have voted method 2. But I have to go with how Caladan thinks.
Sorry if this upsets some folks. I'll accept flames in
email :)
With that said if a person wants to "pay" out their share
of claimed treasure away from their equal share let me
know and I can certainly do that. In that way it is method
2 for you. Arawn has already decided to forgo his share
of any treasure share just wanting his claims.
GM: Sorry for the delay but its been a hectic delay. We are
so close to finish of this adventure and IBT time. Since
it will be a down time we can dicker and argue the above
issues more if you guys want. Like I say I hate GMs who
decide everything for a group. That's why I put up
a vote and let your voices be heard. In the end I did
have to pick the method based on the tie. :<
Actions? Comments?
Next Update...Monday...
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