[pnpgm] Ruling on Oblivion...

Scott Adams longshot at darktech.org
Tue Apr 21 08:57:32 CEST 2009


   Ok.  This subject of Oblivion could get way out of hand so I want
   to address it in a separate file.  I can argue points in the PNP
   mailing list if need be.  But I want to give my views on it then
   give my ruling.  If you don't care anything about the Oblivion
   subject-thread then ignore this post.

   First, over the last decade in this game I've done like I do for every
   player group I've had in the last 30 years.  Its a learning curve for
   myself and for the players.  As groups get more powerful I tweak the
   rules and get less lenient.  For example Adventure #1 I didn't care
   about food or water.  Adventure 2 I did.  In first 2 I didn't care
   much about horse encumbrance but now I do.  In first two adventures
   I didn't care about item damage but from 3 on I did.  Rules change
   and rules shift.  This is to improve play in various ways.  It helps
   folks get acquainted with the game and with the style of play.  Also
   as you guys get far far more powerful I have to balance it to the
   good guys favor again.  Otherwise it would be a walk in the park
   each time.  I'm a strong believer in Balance.

   Now for this adventure more rules will be used like movement effects
   from damage, trauma and some minor other ones I've not used before.

   Now with that said let's look at the spell.

   OBLIVION                 ALIGNMENT  Balance

     The spell transports a specific victim within the caster’s 
range to oblivion. He ceases to exist in a meaningful sense until 
the duration ends. The Caster who sent him can recall him. The 
cost to recall someone is twice that required to send him.
     While a victim is in oblivion he is not affected by the 
passage of time. When the Duration of the spell ends he returns 
to the place from which he was sent exactly as he was when he 
left. It will seem to him that he had a momentary blackout though 
years may have passed.
     A Hit Point Limit applies with this spell. If the creature 
is larger, the amount of the excess is added to his MDV in 
resisting. If the result of the spell is Abysmal Failure the 
Caster goes to oblivion. He remains there until the Duration 
ends.


   I'll take it apart line by line.

   The spell transports a specific victim within the caster's range to
   oblivion.

   GM: 1) I can interpret that "transport" to a shift in existence or
       dimension.  2) Oblivion can be a place or a non existence.

   He ceases to exist in a meaningful sense until the duration ends.

   GM: "cease" is a harsh word.  It could be a physics level term like
       a black hole.  When you reach a certain point then you cease to
       exist but are always technically everywhere in the universe on
       a quantum level.  For Fantasy some feel its a niche hole.

   The Caster who sent him can recall him.

   GM: "recall" could in some ways mean that the GM can say "come back"
       and poof he is back.  A bit vague there.

   The cost to recall someone is twice that required to send him

   GM: There you go have to expend mana or energy to recall him so
       its a willful act that seems to be directed toward the gods
       as all "mana" requests are in the mythos.

   While a victim is in oblivion he is not affected by the passage of time.

   GM: Seems straight forward.  But some can read this as cease to
       exist on a normal "thinking" level or simply in the middle world.
       Oblivion could be a upper world realm for example.  So why
       can't the folks just be sent there?  No time passes and no
       escape from this place.

    When the Duration of the spell ends he returns  to the place from
    which he was sent exactly as he was when he left.

    GM: Here is the tricky part.  "from which he was sent".  Will
        return to this :)

    It will seem to him that he had a momentary blackout though years
    may have passed.

    GM: Hours or years.  In one culture punishment is 200 years in Oblivion.
        So this is well beyond the age of a person.  Ergo we must conclude
        that maybe the spell remains even after the caster's death?
        This seems only logical but then may mean the spell is tied to
        a place or god and not a caster.

    A Hit Point Limit applies with this spell.

    GM: This seems to imply that a hit point limit is for living things.
        Therefore does this mean objects can't be included?  It doesn't
        say structure points or DR.  In pnp material life is DR damage
        resistance.  So does this rule out items?

    If the creature is larger, the amount of the excess is added to his
    MDV in resisting.

    GM: Makes sense.  But it doesn't put a size limit to a object.

    If the result of the spell is Abysmal Failure the Caster goes to
    oblivion.

    GM: Make sense.  But one could read it as if he can stop the spell
        could he do it from inside?  I'd say not.  The gods would not
        like the punishment be that easy.

    He remains there until the Duration ends.

    GM: That cancels out the recall order so he can't just stop it.  Which
        supports my comment.  

    DURATION     2 months (EL factor applies as a power)
    RANGE        (EL+1)*2”

    HIT POINT LIMIT (EL+1)*6

    GM: Notice this formula.  Means 6 hits for EL0.  How many pcs have
    that low or creatures.  One could reason that the spell is meant for
    small things as a base not large things.  Even at a decent eL10 your
    only talking 66 points which can't even trap a dragon.

   Now, I did some more research...

POTEH                                  Contact Level  9
     Lord of Oblivion, Master of Forgetfulness, God of Forgotten Knowledge,
     collector of things lost, Reader of Fate, Lord of the Unknown, Knower
     of the Unknowable, the eternal void, Warden of the Forgotten Well,
     dweller beyond the veil, Master of the Planes, Keeper of the
     Unalterable

    GM: Based on that I can infer Oblivion is a place not a thing.  The
        person simply doesn't stop and poofs out.  He does go somewhere.
        Likely based on the above to his realm.  


   Alex found this ...
                                                                                     
Book 2 p.32  OBLIVION   An Innate user of this spell using Energy Level
rather than trained Casting Ability rolls Abysmal Failure - is the
caster sent to Oblivion?  [No]


  GM:  From some errata stuff.  Looks like Questions to Richard and not
   sure if you answered or he did. But to me that denies
   divine punishment.  :<


  GM: Another interesting Oblivion keyword found was in the western lands.
      A dragon has Oblivion innately through touch.

  GM: Another search found is Sentinel Beast from v2  It however seems
      to break general concepts of this rule.  Oblivion used by this
      creature send the person d100 miles away from the target.  Thus,
      this implies the oblivion can shift or the god protector of this
      creature "allows" the target to be turned away for the SB's
      protection.  

   Now the theory is to make Oblivion a big-bag-o-many-holdings.

   Personally I despised the D&D version of the bag.  It was abused way
   too much.  "Where is my sword..oh there...hey I found your sailboat
   back here...Jo you need your wagon its still here too..."

   I personally prefer brains over dependent skills and spells.  Role
   playing is to me far more enjoyable than simply pushing a button and
   getting something done or casting a spell.  We have all seen the
   abuse spells like Time Travel (oh I'll go back and do the right path
   to the gold), Wisdom/Knowledge (oh gee I don't need to think of that
   puzzle I'll just download it from the gods), and other spells.  To
   me using your brain is far more rewarding.

   With that said....Panther is right where do you draw the line between
   spell mechanics and science.  Fantasy and Science?  In the past I
   have been lenient with the spell in that you can take stuff with
   you and just release it.  At that point I didn't care.  But when
   it comes to hiding magic items (a cheap way rather than using brains)
   than it becomes more important.

   Some the question is

   1) Can you recall the person back where you currently are or back
      where the spell was originally cast?
   2) Can items be put into it
   3) Can a box of held items be used?

   Based on the above Oblivion is either a place or a non existent thing.
   A pocket void.  A niche universe.  If we go with science it is a
   niche universe, alternate dimension or other world.  If we bring
   that out further we could consider string theory to be attached.
   Based on the fantastical pnp universe and mythos and Poteh it should
   be a place, a realm in the upper world.  A place where folks might
   or might not be able to wander around but not escape.  It could
   be a realm where even he might travel and find the person.  As to
   the person ceasing to exist.  Maybe that is in the middle world but
   not the upper world.  Once back he will have no memory of such things.
   Being a god, and god of Oblivion, one could assume Poteth has rule
   over the realm and can enter it at will. . If he found a person of
   value or interest (or item).  He could interact with it.  This brings
   a new aspect to the oblivion idea of balance.  Could also add spice
   to things sent to Oblivion. :)

   Based on the Sentinel beast's odd ability that implies the gods have
   some ability to protect the beast.  Poteh just happens to be the
   god of choice for this beast.  Therefore Richard must have felt that
   Poteh has the ability to AFFECT the spell results.  Ergo my interaction
   above should fit.  If I were to interpret the "return to the place"
   where it was cast line I would have to conclude that it is where it
   was cast.  The niche universe doesn't roam with you.  As to the whole
   deck of a ship thing one could look at String Theory and assume
   hyperspace, whitespace, niche universes and other dimensions are
   attached to ours at the same "string" point.  If we go with that then
   the deck of a ship is moot.  The planet may have moved in the universe
   but the person returns back to the earth not to space.  On a simple
   common sense term this fits for fantasy as well.  Personally I prefer
   the spell be used at spot and not taken with you.  But seeing as the
   S.B. can affect the parameters that seems to make me think.  One could
   argue the anchor to the spell is attached to the caster.  That the
   niche universe roams with the caster.  Based on this argument I will
   allow it to travel though I personally think that could lead to
   major abuse.  But I can balance that out.  The "anchor" is a mana
   detectable presence and thus can be detected/senses.  As a permanent
   oblivion ward might be attached to a building.  So even though you
   might hide items there is still magic signatures around the caster.
   This also means a trapped beast angry about to kill a caster would
   also find the caster again at the duration if it travels with him.
   So that adds a bit of danger spice. :)

   Items are a bit more unclear.  Common sense say a person brings his
   clothing with him.  Invisible, insubstantial seems to affect
   items so common sense would say the spell can affect such items.  So
   where do you draw the line? Clothing but not a wagon the person
   is sitting on?  The hit point limit doesn't give much hope so
   if one were to include items one must assume some size or value
   limit.  So yes  items can be allowed.  But I'll have to come up
   with some rules on that.  Magic items will clearly defend with their
   MDV.  The exact rules I think I'll come up with privately a formula
   on size or hit like point system.  A talisman might be easier than
   say a full magical dragon armor suit.  So those rules I'll work up
   on.  It might be that each item will have to be rolled for.  A box
   theory still might resist the items inside. Think of it as Poteth
   not wanting anti-his alignment items in his realm.  

   The box within a box or a Bag covering things is a clear trick.  But
   I suspect size limits have to apply even on non magical items. One
   simply can't poof a castle or wagon away at EL0.  Just seems way
   too powerful for that.  (Think of the Dragon in the example for the
   spell - too big).  So I'll apply some hidden rules on that as well.
   It will have to be experimental.  Based on the whim of Poteth.
   As you might get to EL10 maybe you could poof a wagon at that point.
   This then also brings the issue of odd items like sand or water.
   Since there is no people how will Poteth react to such use of the
   spell for his realm?  Sand dirtying up his place?  Or an apple tree
   suddenly popping up in his estate.  Not good if he hates apples.  
   So yes place items in a sack or box.  Try to poof it all at once. But
   things inside can still defend against the spell likely if Poteth
   feels it might annoy him.  


   Conclusion

   1) Oblivion - Upper World Realm
   2) Poteth maybe other gods could enter this realm interact with objects
      and people in oblivion if so desired.
   3) Poteth can affect spell results any or all spell parameters
   4) The trapped person can travel with caster
   5) Anchor to person is magic detectable
   6) Items allowed in oblivion
   7) Items will defend if magic against won't help unless intelligent
   8) Poteth could affect item transport
   9) Can use box/sack full of items with size or item value limits and
      Poteth can affect such item transport


  That should be good balance :)

  Hey...an idea...if Poteth can send things 200 miles away for S.B.s'
  maybe he could reverse it..send other things through the gate...hrmm

  I shouldn't have read that SB entry :)

   I will work on the item rules/mechanics during the cruise mentally
   when I have time.


   A clap of thunder sounds as the god's gavel pounds down....

   So say I....







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