<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Is that the double-size one in the mountains? We never know the "official" name for it, but we named it "Slagg". I think the players had a chance to meet it in our games in the 80's, but they ran like little girls. :}<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:58 AM, Sylverrs_ dragon wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="background-color:"><DIV class="RTE"><P>1) Would have some form of tanning needed to try the skin under the scales so they don't flake off and it doesn't rot.</P><P>2) On the god thing, Kototh has been mentioned. There is also Zuriti to directly consider. He is the eldest Elder Dragon, son of Kototh and sire of the race. Something of a brilliant, cunning battleship with a truly mean disposition and incredible greed.<BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif"> <HR color="#a0c6e5" size="1"> <DIV></DIV>From: <I>Burton Choinski <<A href="mailto:bchoinski@comcast.net">bchoinski@comcast.net</A>></I><BR>Reply-To: <I>The Powers and Perils Mailing List <<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>></I><BR>To: <I>The Powers and Perils Mailing List <<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [PnP] Dragon skinning blues...</I><BR>Date: <I>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:06:18 -0400</I><BR>>I'm still trying to get a grasp on how long it takes to tan hide. <BR>>However, I think I'm looking at the armor in a different way...it <BR>>makes not sense to have the hide with scales stuck in...what if a <BR>>scale is broken or falls off? You get a hole (Smaug knows all about <BR>> that stuff). I'm re-envisioning it as scale mail with the light <BR>>(but tough) dragon scale instead of metal. A lot of the work is <BR>>therefor spent in drilling holes in the scale and attaching them to <BR>>the leather under them. In this case, the tanning process is more <BR>>to remove the scales and cure them.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>On Mar 28, 2007, at 2:20 AM, Tobie Bonahoom wrote:<BR>><BR>>>Well, to start with - and I am sure you have thought of this, <BR>>>however just need to bring it up -- this was a Kotothi dragon, so <BR>>>that would make it a magical beast, which makes some of the <BR>>>possibilities come to the front of my thoughts.<BR>>><BR>>>One, anything made from it would have the Kotothi alignment <BR>>>attached to it, unless the players can come up with a way to purify <BR>>> it.<BR>>><BR>>>Two, Kototh might be a tad pissed off about one of his greater <BR>>>creatures being killed - especially if there was an elf of the <BR>>>Sidh alignment involved. He might just do something about it <BR>>>quickly (unless this dragon was of no real value to him).<BR>>><BR>>>Three, are they going to haul all this hide and scales to a place <BR>>>or build the pits and curing and everything right there. As this <BR>>>will take a minimum of 30 or 40 days to just get the hide cured and <BR>>> tanned, before making anything with it.<BR>>><BR>>>Fourth, don't know if you are taking any of the magical properties <BR>>>into place here, however because it was as dragon, most of them <BR>>>inherit magical affinities that can come into play. With that <BR>>>possibility you could also make the curing and armor making faster <BR>>>or harder, with having to have a mage helping the out with the <BR>>>process.<BR>>><BR>>>Just my quick thoughts on the matter for what you put into this. I <BR>>>would definitely have the rest (teeth, bones, talons, blood) be a <BR>>>bit trickier as just getting those pieces off the dragon could kill <BR>>> them with some of the wild magics that can run through them. <BR>>>Also, I remember too that the blood still has properties even <BR>>>though they did not get it from the dragon while it was alive.<BR>>><BR>>>Tobie Bonahoom<BR>>><BR>>>>From: Burton Choinski <<A href="mailto:bchoinski@comcast.net">bchoinski@comcast.net</A>><BR>>>>Reply-To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <BR>>>><<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>><BR>>>>To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>><BR>>>>Subject: [PnP] Dragon skinning blues...<BR>>>>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:50:23 -0400<BR>>>><BR>>>>101 ways to skin a dragon...<BR>>>>---------------------------------------------<BR>>>><BR>>>>Well, the last session was an interesting one, and all sorts of <BR>>>>plot undercurrents are springing up. The players managed to get <BR>>>>their 20- Hunfrithi force to the hills west of Caldo without human <BR>>>> detection. They left 10 at the chosen site and headed back <BR>>>>with the other 10 to make a report to the elder.<BR>>>><BR>>>>On the trip out they been detected by something (they blew their <BR>>>>ambush chance, it made it). It followed and monitored trhem <BR>>>>until they left the Caldan area.<BR>>>><BR>>>>When they arrived back, the players noticed an Elder dragon <BR>>>>(Kototh) flying high over head, sort of keeping pace with the <BR>>>>group, but not attacking.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Silly players, they decide to taunt it in order to get it down to <BR>>>> where they can attack it. I have the main warrior character <BR>>>>make his case and make an influence chance ... 01! Holy crap -- <BR>>>>you just flippled off the dragon and now he's coming in.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Over the course of the battle the dragon pretty much flew at 100' <BR>>>>or so, huffing up a flame on the main tank. Now this character <BR>>>>has a very high MDV to begin with (character), plus he is immune <BR>>>>to 5 levels of magic as a special (yea, it's gross, but these are <BR>>>> our old 80's characters and we decided that if we reupped this <BR>>>>once-a-month game they would be doing big things).<BR>>>><BR>>>>As the battle went on, the tank was getting slowly burnt up. The <BR>>>>elf was doing his best with the bow and was getting the draggon <BR>>>>nibbled down (side note: this was the first time the new SIZE <BR>>>>rules were really felt and there was quite the heated discussion <BR>>>>on it. see below). The dragon was getting weaker, but since it <BR>>>>refused to grapple with an obvious combat monster the tank would <BR>>>>be done before it was. They gambled on another taunting to get <BR>>>>the dragon close whough for the law wizard to cast a spell -- <BR>>>>killing light.<BR>>>><BR>>>>And they did it. That kototh dragon had the biggest look of <BR>>>>suprise on it's 3 heads.<BR>>>><BR>>>>-----------------<BR>>>>Ok, now they have the dragon and they want to "loot the body". <BR>>>>And of course, with no rules in the books on this it comes to <BR>>>>rule makeup time. Comments are very welcome, especially since <BR>>>>the next game is this sunday (the 1st).<BR>>>><BR>>>>Okay, first off we figured this elder dragon was 30' or so. A lot <BR>>>> of that, obviously, is tail and neck. Nothing to go on for <BR>>>>weight, so I had to play with numbers.<BR>>>><BR>>>>An eagle scaled to 30' would weigh 12,000#.<BR>>>>A Komodo dragon scaled to 30' would weigh 10,000#<BR>>>>A nile crocodile scaled to 30' would be 3,300#<BR>>>>A salt water croc scled to 30' would be 5,500#.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Ok, splitting the difference from reptialian and large wingspan <BR>>>>bird, I come up with 7,500# or so. Looking at it again, and <BR>>>>rounding numbers for taste, we come to 8,800#. This means that <BR>>>>dragons weigh in at 100#/AHP.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>MEAT:<BR>>>>This all assumes that dragon meat is even edible, much less <BR>>>>Kotothi dragons. Assuming it is, the obvious plan is to preserve <BR>>>> what they can of the "best" meat and sell it as a novelty. I <BR>>>>presume they will be using the wizard's preservation spell to <BR>>>>keep it okay for now (have to investigate spell limits).<BR>>>><BR>>>>presumably we are talking top-grade cooks for this. it looks <BR>>>>like EL20 is about fair for your normal trained cook, with EL40 <BR>>>>for a "x2" cook. Assuming the meat is nothing special I suppose <BR>>>>that EL40 is sufficuent to cook it given the instructions on <BR>>>>preparation, but presumably requires character-class cooks to <BR>>>>actually figure out those instructions of how to cook, season, or <BR>>>> otherwise make it edible. I guess we can figure on losing at <BR>>>>least some of the meat in experimentation.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Looking into it online, it looks like herbivores come in with a <BR>>>>wide range of "meat ratios" , but fumbling the numbers a bit and <BR>>>>rounding for ease of use it looks like wild herbivores come in at <BR>>>> 25% weight for meat and domestic herbivores at 50% weight. The <BR>>>> remainder is waste and non-meat products (bone, blood, <BR>>>>intestines. (Domestic is higher since it is raised for meat).<BR>>>><BR>>>>From Wik: "Beef is first divided into primal cuts. These are <BR>>>>basic sections from which steaks and other subdivisions are <BR>>>>cut.When looking at a diagrams such as the ones below, note that <BR>>>>the closer to the middle back, the more tender the meat is. Since <BR>>>> the animal's legs and neck muscles do the most work, they are <BR>>>>the toughest; the meat becomes progressively more tender as <BR>>>>distance from "hoof and horn" increases."<BR>>>><BR>>>>One would assume that would normally apply to other animals, but <BR>>>>dragons have a big honking set of wings that impact the area <BR>>>>where the sirloin would be. I guess by this rule of thumb, the <BR>>>>tail meat is what ends up being the tenderest, with the rest <BR>>>>being relatively tough. Also, I figure that as a flying beast at <BR>>>> least hal it's weight will be in the huge wings, and there will <BR>>>> be hardly anything usable in that, so cut all yields in half.<BR>>>><BR>>>>With beef, "the good cuts" (Sirloin) end up being 10% of the meat <BR>>>> weight. About another 20% are "fair" cuts (roasts and chuck). <BR>>>>The rest is stew meat or burger.<BR>>>><BR>>>>So this 8800# dragon will render 1,100# of meat, of which 110# <BR>>>>are the tenderest cuts and another 220# are decent steaks and <BR>>>>roasts.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Preservation does not indicate a quantity limit -- Give the base <BR>>>>time I assume the original intent was a man-day of food (3FP, or <BR>>>>3#) that could be preserved for travel. To keep it simple, I <BR>>>>suppose we can figure the effect is a combined value -- at EL4 we <BR>>>> have an effect of 32 -- this is one man-day of food preserved <BR>>>>untouched for 32 days, or 32 man-days of food left safe and <BR>>>>unspoiled for 1 day (even if it's full of mayo :) or any range in <BR>>>> between. Presumably the caster can refresh the spell each day, <BR>>>>so if need be he can spend it all on quantity, but the time is <BR>>>>never less that a full day.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>HIDE:<BR>>>>The tank character is an armorer, so he wants the hide to make <BR>>>>leather armor from. An elder dragon's AV is 6, but this is on a <BR>>>>30' beast (of which we can figure that about HALF that is body). <BR>>>> The question becomes one of "how much of this AV is due to <BR>>>>thickness, and how much is due to properties?<BR>>>><BR>>>>As a flying creature, weight does become a premium, so a good <BR>>>>portion of the AV is due to properties of the hide. many of the <BR>>>>larger reptiles that are ground based seem to hit around AV2, so <BR>>>>I can feal comfortable with have a base of 2 for larger creature <BR>>>>(increased for size, decreased for flight). If we consider <BR>>>>dragon hide to be scaled, an actual dragon's hide is a lot like <BR>>>>scale mail or lamilar -- AV2 in raw hide, with AV4 in overlapping <BR>>>> plates.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Your average modern cow can be peeled for about 50 square feet of <BR>>>> hide. This is presumably fairly thin and needs to be doubled up <BR>>>> when making leather armor (to get AV1). When a cow is layed <BR>>>>out it's pretty much a squarish rectangle, but a dragon would be <BR>>>>more drawn out. Given a main body size of 15', we can probably <BR>>>>look at about 25' (body plus some usable tail and necks) by 6', <BR>>>>or about 150 square feet of hide and scale (about triple that of <BR>>>>a modern cow, or five times that of a medieval cow). It takes <BR>>>>about a week to prepare raw skin into leather, though a process <BR>>>>of soaking, scraping, tanning (often using the brains of the <BR>>>>creature as a part of the tanning mix) and smoking. Presumably <BR>>>>the dragon hide will need a bit more work. I think a good guess <BR>>>>is that it will take at least four times as long (twice as long <BR>>>>for the size and efort to soak and scrape, and twice as long for <BR>>>>the smoke time to cure it). In addition, one will be going <BR>>>>somewhat slower so as to not losen the scales before the hide is <BR>>>>fully cured, so ut the time by another 2 factor to SIX times as <BR>>>>long. My cost estimates have it at 1SC to cure a cow hide into <BR>>>>leather. A dragon hide will presumably require more expensive <BR>>>>(and probably caustic) materials, so I would have it be at least <BR>>>>1GC in materials as a minimum for the hide alone. Presumably the <BR>>>> scale would need even more treatment so that they would not <BR>>>>loosen from the hide, so I would up the material cost by 4GC more <BR>>>> for the scales for a minimum total of 5GC.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Ok, so how much leather is needed? About 4# of leather go into <BR>>>>leather armor (by the books) which is about 8 square feet of 8oz <BR>>>>leather (8oz per square foot). Cow hide is easily thich enough <BR>>>>for this, but we obviously have to thicken it up by doubling over <BR>>>> when you make armor. Call it 15 square feet of cowhide for <BR>>>>leather armor. If we go by the same rule of thumb, the <BR>>>>underlying hide of the dragon is normally AV1 right off the bat <BR>>>>and thick enough to not need doubling (and in fact cannot be so, <BR>>>>since we havethe scales on the outside). The scales themselves <BR>>>>only provide AV3 since they are stiffer and don't provide the <BR>>>>coverage they did on a live dragon. Accounting for waste, call it <BR>>>> 10 square feet of hide for AV4 dragonscale leather, with a <BR>>>>weight of 10# for the hide alone. Assume the scales are tough <BR>>>>and thin, but with an equal weight, so this dragonscale armor <BR>>>>would weigh 20#.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Construction?<BR>>>>Given all that wonderful dragon leather, how long will it take to <BR>>>> form? The underlying hide will take at least twice as long to <BR>>>>cut and sew. The armorer is not actually cutting the scales <BR>>>>(hard as plate and cannot be hammered or shaped like for metal <BR>>>>armors) but instead cutting out the leather underneath to form <BR>>>>the peice, which is then sewn together much like normal leather <BR>>>>armor.<BR>>>><BR>>>>In my armorer rules I tried to figure out appropriate times to <BR>>>>make armor based on the sale price and material cost. If an <BR>>>>armorer makes 2GC per month then obviously that is the sale price <BR>>>> of all his armors after taking into account materail cost. By <BR>>>>my figuring, leather armor takes a tad less than a day to make <BR>>>>(1SC, with a material cost of 4CC. Labor value is 6CC. <BR>>>>200CC/30 days is 6.667CC per day). using the same concept and a <BR>>>>few assumptions, we can generate the numbers we need.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Assuming a final price of 40GC, and materials value 200x that of <BR>>>>leather (for comparison, steel has a value of 10x that of <BR>>>>leather), I jiggered the material% until the numbers lined up. It <BR>>>> works out to 240 days of work to account the armorer's labor <BR>>>>costs in order to justify the 40GC of sale price. Now this is a <BR>>>>special item, so I'm tweaking the umbers a tad. One, any armorer <BR>>>> who can do this is obviouly skilled enough to justify a greater <BR>>>> rate. If we figure a rate of 5GC/month, that would assume <BR>>>>labor is actually 100 days. But that still seems awfully long <BR>>>>just for cut and sew (essentially) thick leather. I'm willing <BR>>>>to cut the time by a third (round to 30 days, or one month) to <BR>>>>call it a "luxury" peice...any armorer who has the chance to <BR>>>>make it can make one and then relax the next 60 days.<BR>>>><BR>>>>That's enough for this tome. The other items of Question are <BR>>>>TEETH and BONES. Any suggestions there?<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>>pnp mailing list<BR>>>><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A><BR>>>><A href="http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp">http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp</A><BR>>><BR>>>_________________________________________________________________<BR>>>Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. <BR>>><A href="http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/">http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/</A> <BR>>>default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>pnp mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A><BR>>><A href="http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp">http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp</A><BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>pnp mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A><BR>><A href="http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp">http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp</A><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR clear="all"><HR> <A href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2752??PS=47575" target="_top">Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get intro-rate 4.625%*</A><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">pnp mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp">http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>