[PnP] Economic Project, Part 1 (rev 2)
Monster Jam
unlv_runnin_rebels at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 11 04:48:40 CEST 2014
Just an observation but Assassin seems to need no translation from French to English.
Found that humorous - in a dark way of course.
Tom
Long live Powers & Perils.
On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:46 PM, TNT <tanghet at skynet.be> wrote:
Dear PP-fans,
I’ve designed a table for revenue (Monthly and Daily), a rule for daily living cost of living and EL effect on revenue.
If you want i can translate the rules in english (the table labels is another affair)… just tell me J
2.9 Income by profession
Chaque métier peut procurer un revenu mensuel, quotidien ou à l’acte. La table suivante donne le revenu de base, exprimé en sous(SO). Certains métiers n’ont pas de talent associé et peuvent être testé sur base d’une formule incluant les caractéristiques indiquées ci-dessous :
Profession M Q Test
Acrobate 30 A En
Acteur 50 V E
Alchimiste 270 30 I Em
Amuseur 60 E Em
Apothicaire 300 35 I I
Architecte 460 110 I I
Armateur 450 20 I V
Armurier 540 D Em
Arracheur dent 280 V I
Artiste 80 V Em
Assassin 400 D V
Astrologue 420 60 Em I
Aubergiste 300 V En
Aumônier 100 Em E
Avocat 410 60 E I
Bailli 130 V I
Banneret 170 I V
Barbier 200 10 V I
Baron 250 V Em
Bateleur 260 En F
Berger 100 En Em
Boucher 240 D En
Boulanger 280 En D
Bûcheron 180 F F
Caravanier 280 En En
Carrier 160 F D
Cartographe 420 75 I I
Chandelier 270 D D
Changeur 290 I I
Chapelier 320 D Em
Chapelain 200 I E
Charbonnier 270 F En
Charpentier 330 35 F D
Charretier 320 F En
Chasseur 210 D En
Chaudronnier 380 F D
Chaussetier 310 D D
Chevalier 100 F I
Chiffonnier 250 D En
Clerc 220 Em I
Colporteur 70 En F
Comte 300 I V
Conseiller 150 Em I
Cordelier 270 D F
Cordonnier 340 D D
Courtisan 100 Ap V
Crieur 30 E E
Cuisinier /chef coq 170 Em D
Danseur 40 A A
Dignitaire religieux 420 90 V Em
Diplomate 500 80 I V
Distillateur 250 I Em
Domestique 90 En A
Drapier 300 D D
Dresseur 360 45 Em V
Duc 400 I V
Ébéniste 350 D En
Éclaireur 300 D En
Écrivain public 20 I Em
Écuyer 320 A En
Éleveur 290 V Em
Embaumeur 240 30 V D
Enlumineur 40 I Em
Entraîneur animaux 320 V En
Épicier 150 I E
Ermite 150 En V
Esclavagiste 340 V I
Esclave 5 En V
Espion 180 I I
Étudiant 140 I Em
Fabricant trappe 310 40 D D
Fauconnier 440 Em V
Fermier 140 En F
Fondeur 360 F En
Forestier 170 En En
Forgeron 400 D F
Fou 70 V Em
Fourreur 330 D D
Gantier 300 D D
Garçon d’écurie 80 A En
Garde 150 20 F D
Gardien de terre 200 En F
Gens d’arme 160 F D
Geôlier 140 En V
Graveur 30 I D
Guérisseur 300 Em V
Harpiste 240 150 Em En
Héraut 380 80 I Em
Herboriste/mi/eq 300 50 I I
Homme d’arme 170 F V
Ingénieur 450 80 Em E
Inquisiteur 300 Em I
Intendant 410 65 I I
Joaillier 330 D V
Jongleur 35 D A
Joueur 50 I V
Juge 440 I I
Laboureur 120 F En
Laitier 130 En En
Lexicographe 50 D I
Linguiste 380 I Em
Luthier 210 55 D En
Maçon 480 D En
Maître chenil 300 Em V
Maître d’arme 450 D A
Maître d'équipage 390 V En
Maraîcher 210 En F
Maraud 50 D I
Marchand 90 I V
Marché 5 E I
Marin 240 En F
Marin eau douce 250 En A
Marin mer 280 En F
Mathématicien 330 I I
Médecin 440 50 I Em
Mendiant 40 Ap E
Ménestrel 35 E Em
Menuisier 350 D En
Mercenaire 150 10 F V
Messager 180 20 En A
Meunier 420 F En
Mineur 420 En F
Musicien 180 Em I
Notaire 420 60 I I
Officier 350 V Ap
Orateur 40 E E
Ouvrier 120 F F
Page 170 A En
Parfumeur 330 Em Em
Paysan 120 F En
Pêcheur 240 V D
Petit seigneur 140 V F
Pilote 480 I I
Pisteur 200 Em I
Plaideur 360 25 E I
Poète 290 Em Em
Porcher 280 F En
Potier 300 D Em
Prêcheur 90 E V
Prêtre 140 Em V
Prévôt 430 V Em
Professeur 340 I E
Prostituée 180 85 Ap Ap
Ramoneur 140 En F
Rebouteux 250 V D
Religieux 120 Em V
Rentier 300 I V
Roi 900 I Ap
Saisonnier 10 En D
Salier 240 D En
Sapeur 200 F En
Savant 360 25 I I
Scientifique 300 I Em
Scribe 330 15 Em D
Seigneur 200 V I
Sellier 160 A D
Sénéchal 490 F A
Sergent 200 F En
Serrurier 300 D D
Serviteur 120 10 En I
Soigneur d’animaux 310 Em I
Sorcier 800 I V
Spécial 100 F I
Tailleur 280 D I
Tanneur 300 A D
Tapissier 340 D I
Tavernier 270 I Em
Teinturier 280 A D
Tentier 360 D F
Tisserand 330 D I
Tonnelier 300 F D
Troubadour 50 E Ap
Tuilier 290 D En
Tuteur 280 V E
Usurier 40 I V
Vanneur 290 D D
Vendangeur 180 En En
Verrier 330 I D
Vigneron 250 Em I
Voleur 300 D A
Profession = nom du métier.
M= revenu mensuel en sous (SO).
Q= revenu quotidien ou à la pièce/à l’acte en sous(SO).
Test = les caractéristiques principales et secondaires pour la maîtrise d’une profession
Vous pouvez calculez le revenu mensuel sur base du revenu quotidien : M = 15 x Q sous(SO) et le revenu quotidien sur base du mensuel : Q = M/20 sous(SO).
Pour déterminer un revenu mensuel basé sur un talent quelconque, utilisez la formule suivante : M = CPA(du talent) x 4 sous(SO).
Expertise dans le talent
Le revenu est modifié par le NE dans le talent (équivaut à [Carac principale x2 + Carac. Secondaire)/2) :
NE Revenu
<21 -50%
21-40 -25%
41-60 0
>60 +25%
N’oubliez pas de tester les talents marchands pour évaluer le gain ou la perte supplémentaire.
-----Message d'origine-----
De : pnp [mailto:pnp-bounces at list.powersandperils.org] De la part de Scott Adams
Envoyé : jeudi 10 avril 2014 05:57
À : The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Objet : Re: [PnP] Economic Project, Part 1 (rev 2)
Each time I try to post I get busy.
I've saved the posts and when get brain power and time will reply. I started a bit tonight so its being worked on.
At 09:54 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote:
>Note: After playing with the numbers, in order to keep the
>farmer/urban ratio proper, I decided the "per season" was
>per-year. re-formulated the assumptions and gave my reasonings. :)
>Also reformatted.
>
>
>Greetings everyone! It's been a long while since I put anything
>major up to the list, and given the low traffic I figured I may as
>well do so with a project I have been working on for what seems like
>several years (off and on, including endless tweaks and
>redos). This is my "Economic Unification" project.
>
>For all the years my group and I have been playing P&P, one of the
>largest irks we had was with the equipment list, mostly with some of
>the wacky prices, but also because of them it made fitting in new
>equipment somewhat difficult. 5 years ago, when we restarted our
>"Legends" campaign with their characters of 25 years ago, one of
>their goals was to eventually carve out a kingdom for themselves
>(which they have, in the "unclaimed" hills and mountains of the
>western elder mountains, close to Treaus.
>
>Well, once you get such a kingdom, they needed to know what they
>were bringing in with regards to taxes. I could have gone with the
>culture book's GNI calculation and been done with it, but being the
>type who likes to crunch numbers and lay out a consistent basis for
>things, I went back to our old nemesis, the equipment list and how
>things are priced. To do this I would need to work out costs from
>the ground up, thus the birth of this project.
>
>I am presenting these series of posts as both a presentation of my
>ideas to the list as well as draw upon the collective experiences of
>GM's and players alike to poke holes at my assumptions, shore up
>faulty logic, or add missing information that would make it more
>complete. I hope the eventual "laws" that are generated can then be
>used by all to create a more comprehensive and logically consistent
>set of prices for any gear or services we ever need.
>
>Now, I am not an economist (though some of you out there may be), so
>I'm looking at these rules as a step-by-step system to lay out a
>logical reasoning for the values of various goods and services. The
>goal is not to make "Sim-Donara", and may of the assumptions are
>made to reduce the laws to a bare minimum with a "perfect world"
>mindset, with the assumption that once we have a solid foundation,
>simple modifiers can then be worked up to reflect the variances one
>might encounter in the actual game world.
>
>In summation, before I begin, I plan to present my thesis for open
>use as I plan to use it in my game. Comments pointing out missing
>parts or faulty logic are certainly welcome, and I will try to reply
>to all with my reasons why I don't think they work or with updated
>info as needed once integrated. I have a large excel spreadsheet
>that is backing all these calculations, and I'll happily email it to
>anyone who wishes a copy at any point (I'll have to keep it
>revisioned, as it may get updated a lot depending on
>responses). Simply contact me at bchoinskI at verizon.net and ask for
>the economic sheet. And if you find bad formulas, let me know!
>
>With luck, at the end of this a comprehensive an internally
>consistent equipment and services list can be created.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The following base assumptions are used as the core of the system:
> * A P&P year is 360 days; a P&P week is 6 days, for 5 weeks per month
> * A P&P ton is 2000 pounds
> * Normal definitions of an acre (43,560 square feet) and mile (5,280 feet)
> apply; a square mile contain 640 acres
> * Yields and production rates based on real-world data for Roman era thru
> Middle-Ages, where I could find it; Some info drawn from GURPS Low Tech
> sources since I believe the authors have tried to do the same research
> I am doing and probably had paid access to sources I can't google up
> (Assuming GURPS TL1 or TL2 for the P&P world, with TL3 in some cultures
> for specific technologies)
> * All occupations are averaged out to the productivity of a single man;
> yes, many occupations are performed by teams of men, but we average it
> out to find a single man value. This allows us to easily calculate the
> production of any number of people.
> - For simplicity, children (who normally contribute to a family's
> income) produce at HALF rate, but likewise require HALF the needs.
> * We assume an average food need for human adults of 2.5 food points
> * Values of products or services are largely based on the cost of labor,
> plus any source materials for refining or crafting occupations
> * When sources refer to a "family", we assume two adults at full
> production
> one youth at half production and two children at quarter production and
> perhaps a baby at no production. Thus, a family of 5-6 has
> the production
> (and income needs) of 3 adults.
>
>
>All occupations have a set standard of living, defined as a
>specified number of bits per day. The base values by station at
>based on the P&P starting wealth table and some ideas from other games:
> * Station 1 -- Labor (1bb), Skilled Labor (2bb)
> * Station 2 -- Crafter (5bb), Master Crafter (10bb), Tradesman (5bb),
> Uncommon Tradesman (10bb), Pack Trader (5bb),
> Minor Merchant (10bb)
> * Station 3 -- Artisan (20bb), Master Artisan (50bb), Merchant (20bb),
> Master Merchant (50bb)
> * Station 4 -- Specialist (100b), Rare Specialist (200b)
>
>
>
>The foundation of most civilized lands is agriculture. Farmers at
>Station 1 make up the majority of the population, and the overall
>cost of food is based on what their income is worth.
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>FARMER (1bb/day)
>GURPS Low Tech Companion #3 (henceforth GLTC3) states that barley
>produces 705# per acre per growing season, with wheat producing 355#
>and legumes 280#. Agriculture at the level of technology produces
>yields 4:1 (4 pounds of grain for every pound sewn). I am unable to
>nail down a distinct maximum amount of land that a farming family
>can manage per year, but we want to match a more "ancient" rate of
>support needing plenty of farmers to support an urban
>population. Analysis of the P&P cultures shows that the weighted
>average margin is 20% (i.e. 1 farmer can support 1.2
>people). Iteration of various values in excel indicates that the
>average farmland that a family can manage is 14 acres. At the P&P
>level of technology, the two-field system is most likely used, so
>half of this land is left fallow fallow each year to prevent soil exhaustion.
>
>With the above numbers, a farm produces 4,935# of barley, 2,485# of
>wheat or 1,960# of legumes each year, of which 1 part in 4 must be
>retained for next years crops. This results in usable returns of
>3,702# of barley (1,234#/adult), 1,864# of wheat (622#/adult) and
>1,470# of legumes (490#/adult). Wheat produces about 1.7x the weight
>of the grain in straw (usable for fodder), or 4,225#
>(1,409#/adult). To keep things simple, barley produces less usable
>fodder, keeping it's yield at the same level as wheat.
>
>A farmer works 300 days a year on his own farm, spending an
>additional 30 days (tithe) working the lands of his liege lord. The
>remaining 30 days in the year account for sickness, holy days or bad
>weather, but implies that a farmer could work those days, getting
>+10% income. The 300 days working his own farm must meet his income
>needs (1bb/day), so we can determine the value of the crops. It is
>assumed that grains make up 75% of the income, with straw/fodder
>making up the other 25%. Legumes make up 100% of the income when grown.
> Barley/Oats -> 0.1824bb/# (9b for a 50# bushel)
> Wheat -> 0.3618bb/# (18b for a 50# bushel)
> Legumes -> 0.6123bb/# (30b for a 50# bushel)
> Fodder -> 0.0533bb/# (11b for a 200# bale)
>
>GLTC3 states that an active adult requires 750# of grain per year to
>survive. Wheat provides more protein than barley and is used for
>bread, with legumes making up the remainder of the needed protein
>(meat was relatively rare). Working the numbers such that food costs
>2/3 the income, the diet is 70% barley, 20% wheat and 10% legumes,
>the yearly food cost is 196bb/year. Obviously, lower quality food
>can be bought for less if he needs money for other things.
>
>In terms of population support, using the same percentages to
>determine the average food cost, a single adult farmer produces
>enough to feed 1.383 adults. While higher than the P&P weighted
>margin, it is enough to cover some high ratio cultures without the
>need for serious food imports (i.e. A'Korchu at a 33% margin or
>Dirlla at a 37% margin).
>
>Given the above, the average adult requires 2.5FP per day, or 900FP
>per year. A grain/legumes diet provides 1.2FP per pound. At least
>now a Station person can afford his food (Book 1 had grain at 2bb per pound!)
>
>The value of cropland works out to the income produced by the people
>working it for you. At 300b income over 14 acres, this comes to
>21.43bb/acre for farmland (active+fallow). Book 1 states that
>farmland is worth 1SC per acre when purchased, so if we go with this
>value as one of our "data anchors" this implies that land sells for
>4.7x it's yearly production income. This will come in handy when we
>eventually determine the cost of other land.
>
>The cost of wintering a horse is based on 100 days where grazing is
>not possible. For a 1000lb horse, this is 20# of straw fodder per
>day, or 1SC per year. Working horses (horses on the battlefield or
>constantly working) cannot graze and will need oats as a supplement
>(0.5lb oats per 100lb weight) in addition to purchased straw, so
>owning a horse will cost an adventurer 12bb per week while traveling
>(6CC per month).
>
>
>BREWER (5bb/year)
>On old resource I've mined for info is "Economy Quest", a set of
>economic rules made for Runequest (available if desired, contact me
>by email). From their rules:
>Brewing
> Brewers are crafters living in the 1440 p. income bracket.
> A small brewery
> produces 2900 liters of ale per year. This ale sells, in
> bulk, for 5 clacs
> per liter. A brewery may grow its own hops, requiring a
> small farm to do
> so, or buy them, which costs 220 pennies per year.
>
>The 1440p income is the same as our 5bb/year. 2900 liters is roughly
>766 gallons. Scaled down from a family, this averages to 256
>gallons per adult. From personal experience and online sources, a
>good rule of thumb is 10# of malted grain for 5 gallons of water, or
>2# per gallon. While hops were not introduced in the real world
>until the middle ages, other herbs or spices were used as
>preservatives. We assume the brewing family grows whatever was used
>on their own lands and gathers their firewood for boiling the brew.
>
>(NOTE: Is this too little beer? I have brewed in the past, in 5
>gallon batches and it took me, with modern gear a few hours to boil
>and cool the wort, followed by a week or so of fermentation before
>bottling. Were I to do this every night (had I the equipment) for
>300 days I could do about 1,500 gallons a year If I also had to
>spend the day gathering firewood, picking hops, checking on the
>grain being malted for the next batch, etc. And that's with 20th
>century appliances and modern plumbing. If I had to do it with
>firewood and getting water from the local well, I could easily see
>my rate cut in half.)
>
>At 5bb per day, the 300 day rate is 1500bb. Instead of working a
>liege-lord's lands, the brewer pays an additional 10% of their
>income in beer to the lord, so he must actually produce 1650bb of
>value in those 300 days (which allows for +20% income if he works
>extra days). Given the cost of 500lb of barley, plus his income
>needs and tithed value we can determine the value of his beer or ale.
> Beer -> 6.965bb/gallon
>
>The brewer would likely sell his beer in 10 gallon lots (you supply
>the barrel; the actual cost of a barrel lies in a future
>installment), cleaned up for "processing and handling".
> Beer -> 7CC per 10 gallon keg
>
>
>TAVERN-KEEPER (5bb/year)
>With the cost of beer from his supplier at 7bb/gallon, and a noted
>Book 1 cost of 2bb per quart (8bb/gallon), a Tavern-Keeper's markup
>is obviously 1bb per gallon (15%), meaning he must sell 1,650
>gallons a year (about 5.5 gallons per day, over 300 days of
>operation). Using this same ratio, a tavern that sold prepared food
>would use the same margin
> Beer or Ale -> 2bb/quart, 1bb/pint
> Watered Ale -> 1bb/quart
> Tavern Meal -> 1/4bb per food point (per day) at Station 1
>
>
>
>
>Web sources:
>------------
>http://www.hyw.com/books/history/agricult.htm
>http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/horse/horse.html
>http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/m_econ.htm
>http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/everything-starts-with-grain
>
>
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>pnp at list.powersandperils.org
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