[PnP] Dragon skinning blues...
bonahoom at hotmail.com
Wed Mar 28 08:20:46 CEST 2007
Well, to start with - and I am sure you have thought of this, however just
need to bring it up -- this was a Kotothi dragon, so that would make it a
magical beast, which makes some of the possibilities come to the front of my
One, anything made from it would have the Kotothi alignment attached to it,
unless the players can come up with a way to purify it.
Two, Kototh might be a tad pissed off about one of his greater creatures
being killed - especially if there was an elf of the Sidh alignment
involved. He might just do something about it quickly (unless this dragon
was of no real value to him).
Three, are they going to haul all this hide and scales to a place or build
the pits and curing and everything right there. As this will take a minimum
of 30 or 40 days to just get the hide cured and tanned, before making
anything with it.
Fourth, don't know if you are taking any of the magical properties into
place here, however because it was as dragon, most of them inherit magical
affinities that can come into play. With that possibility you could also
make the curing and armor making faster or harder, with having to have a
mage helping the out with the process.
Just my quick thoughts on the matter for what you put into this. I would
definitely have the rest (teeth, bones, talons, blood) be a bit trickier as
just getting those pieces off the dragon could kill them with some of the
wild magics that can run through them. Also, I remember too that the blood
still has properties even though they did not get it from the dragon while
it was alive.
>From: Burton Choinski <bchoinski at comcast.net>
>Reply-To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <pnp at abroere.xs4all.nl>
>To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <pnp at abroere.xs4all.nl>
>Subject: [PnP] Dragon skinning blues...
>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:50:23 -0400
>101 ways to skin a dragon...
>Well, the last session was an interesting one, and all sorts of plot
>undercurrents are springing up. The players managed to get their 20-
>Hunfrithi force to the hills west of Caldo without human detection. They
>left 10 at the chosen site and headed back with the other 10 to make a
>report to the elder.
>On the trip out they been detected by something (they blew their ambush
>chance, it made it). It followed and monitored trhem until they left the
>When they arrived back, the players noticed an Elder dragon (Kototh)
>flying high over head, sort of keeping pace with the group, but not
>Silly players, they decide to taunt it in order to get it down to where
>they can attack it. I have the main warrior character make his case and
>make an influence chance ... 01! Holy crap -- you just flippled off the
>dragon and now he's coming in.
>Over the course of the battle the dragon pretty much flew at 100' or so,
>huffing up a flame on the main tank. Now this character has a very high
>MDV to begin with (character), plus he is immune to 5 levels of magic as a
>special (yea, it's gross, but these are our old 80's characters and we
>decided that if we reupped this once-a-month game they would be doing big
>As the battle went on, the tank was getting slowly burnt up. The elf was
>doing his best with the bow and was getting the draggon nibbled down (side
>note: this was the first time the new SIZE rules were really felt and
>there was quite the heated discussion on it. see below). The dragon was
>getting weaker, but since it refused to grapple with an obvious combat
>monster the tank would be done before it was. They gambled on another
>taunting to get the dragon close whough for the law wizard to cast a spell
>-- killing light.
>And they did it. That kototh dragon had the biggest look of suprise on
>it's 3 heads.
>Ok, now they have the dragon and they want to "loot the body". And of
>course, with no rules in the books on this it comes to rule makeup time.
>Comments are very welcome, especially since the next game is this sunday
>Okay, first off we figured this elder dragon was 30' or so. A lot of
>that, obviously, is tail and neck. Nothing to go on for weight, so I had
>to play with numbers.
>An eagle scaled to 30' would weigh 12,000#.
>A Komodo dragon scaled to 30' would weigh 10,000#
>A nile crocodile scaled to 30' would be 3,300#
>A salt water croc scled to 30' would be 5,500#.
>Ok, splitting the difference from reptialian and large wingspan bird, I
>come up with 7,500# or so. Looking at it again, and rounding numbers for
>taste, we come to 8,800#. This means that dragons weigh in at 100#/AHP.
>This all assumes that dragon meat is even edible, much less Kotothi
>dragons. Assuming it is, the obvious plan is to preserve what they can of
>the "best" meat and sell it as a novelty. I presume they will be using
>the wizard's preservation spell to keep it okay for now (have to
>investigate spell limits).
>presumably we are talking top-grade cooks for this. it looks like EL20 is
>about fair for your normal trained cook, with EL40 for a "x2" cook.
>Assuming the meat is nothing special I suppose that EL40 is sufficuent to
>cook it given the instructions on preparation, but presumably requires
>character-class cooks to actually figure out those instructions of how to
>cook, season, or otherwise make it edible. I guess we can figure on
>losing at least some of the meat in experimentation.
>Looking into it online, it looks like herbivores come in with a wide range
>of "meat ratios" , but fumbling the numbers a bit and rounding for ease of
>use it looks like wild herbivores come in at 25% weight for meat and
>domestic herbivores at 50% weight. The remainder is waste and non-meat
>products (bone, blood, intestines. (Domestic is higher since it is raised
>From Wik: "Beef is first divided into primal cuts. These are basic
>sections from which steaks and other subdivisions are cut.When looking at
>a diagrams such as the ones below, note that the closer to the middle
>back, the more tender the meat is. Since the animal's legs and neck
>muscles do the most work, they are the toughest; the meat becomes
>progressively more tender as distance from "hoof and horn" increases."
>One would assume that would normally apply to other animals, but dragons
>have a big honking set of wings that impact the area where the sirloin
>would be. I guess by this rule of thumb, the tail meat is what ends up
>being the tenderest, with the rest being relatively tough. Also, I figure
>that as a flying beast at least hal it's weight will be in the huge wings,
>and there will be hardly anything usable in that, so cut all yields in
>With beef, "the good cuts" (Sirloin) end up being 10% of the meat weight.
>About another 20% are "fair" cuts (roasts and chuck). The rest is stew
>meat or burger.
>So this 8800# dragon will render 1,100# of meat, of which 110# are the
>tenderest cuts and another 220# are decent steaks and roasts.
>Preservation does not indicate a quantity limit -- Give the base time I
>assume the original intent was a man-day of food (3FP, or 3#) that could
>be preserved for travel. To keep it simple, I suppose we can figure the
>effect is a combined value -- at EL4 we have an effect of 32 -- this is
>one man-day of food preserved untouched for 32 days, or 32 man-days of
>food left safe and unspoiled for 1 day (even if it's full of mayo :) or
>any range in between. Presumably the caster can refresh the spell each
>day, so if need be he can spend it all on quantity, but the time is never
>less that a full day.
>The tank character is an armorer, so he wants the hide to make leather
>armor from. An elder dragon's AV is 6, but this is on a 30' beast (of
>which we can figure that about HALF that is body). The question becomes
>one of "how much of this AV is due to thickness, and how much is due to
>As a flying creature, weight does become a premium, so a good portion of
>the AV is due to properties of the hide. many of the larger reptiles that
>are ground based seem to hit around AV2, so I can feal comfortable with
>have a base of 2 for larger creature (increased for size, decreased for
>flight). If we consider dragon hide to be scaled, an actual dragon's hide
>is a lot like scale mail or lamilar -- AV2 in raw hide, with AV4 in
>Your average modern cow can be peeled for about 50 square feet of hide.
>This is presumably fairly thin and needs to be doubled up when making
>leather armor (to get AV1). When a cow is layed out it's pretty much a
>squarish rectangle, but a dragon would be more drawn out. Given a main
>body size of 15', we can probably look at about 25' (body plus some usable
>tail and necks) by 6', or about 150 square feet of hide and scale (about
>triple that of a modern cow, or five times that of a medieval cow). It
>takes about a week to prepare raw skin into leather, though a process of
>soaking, scraping, tanning (often using the brains of the creature as a
>part of the tanning mix) and smoking. Presumably the dragon hide will
>need a bit more work. I think a good guess is that it will take at least
>four times as long (twice as long for the size and efort to soak and
>scrape, and twice as long for the smoke time to cure it). In addition, one
>will be going somewhat slower so as to not losen the scales before the
>hide is fully cured, so ut the time by another 2 factor to SIX times as
>long. My cost estimates have it at 1SC to cure a cow hide into leather.
>A dragon hide will presumably require more expensive (and probably
>caustic) materials, so I would have it be at least 1GC in materials as a
>minimum for the hide alone. Presumably the scale would need even more
>treatment so that they would not loosen from the hide, so I would up the
>material cost by 4GC more for the scales for a minimum total of 5GC.
>Ok, so how much leather is needed? About 4# of leather go into leather
>armor (by the books) which is about 8 square feet of 8oz leather (8oz per
>square foot). Cow hide is easily thich enough for this, but we obviously
>have to thicken it up by doubling over when you make armor. Call it 15
>square feet of cowhide for leather armor. If we go by the same rule of
>thumb, the underlying hide of the dragon is normally AV1 right off the bat
>and thick enough to not need doubling (and in fact cannot be so, since we
>havethe scales on the outside). The scales themselves only provide AV3
>since they are stiffer and don't provide the coverage they did on a live
>dragon. Accounting for waste, call it 10 square feet of hide for AV4
>dragonscale leather, with a weight of 10# for the hide alone. Assume the
>scales are tough and thin, but with an equal weight, so this dragonscale
>armor would weigh 20#.
>Given all that wonderful dragon leather, how long will it take to form?
>The underlying hide will take at least twice as long to cut and sew. The
>armorer is not actually cutting the scales (hard as plate and cannot be
>hammered or shaped like for metal armors) but instead cutting out the
>leather underneath to form the peice, which is then sewn together much
>like normal leather armor.
>In my armorer rules I tried to figure out appropriate times to make armor
>based on the sale price and material cost. If an armorer makes 2GC per
>month then obviously that is the sale price of all his armors after taking
>into account materail cost. By my figuring, leather armor takes a tad
>less than a day to make (1SC, with a material cost of 4CC. Labor value is
>6CC. 200CC/30 days is 6.667CC per day). using the same concept and a few
>assumptions, we can generate the numbers we need.
>Assuming a final price of 40GC, and materials value 200x that of leather
>(for comparison, steel has a value of 10x that of leather), I jiggered the
>material% until the numbers lined up. It works out to 240 days of work to
>account the armorer's labor costs in order to justify the 40GC of sale
>price. Now this is a special item, so I'm tweaking the umbers a tad.
>One, any armorer who can do this is obviouly skilled enough to justify a
>greater rate. If we figure a rate of 5GC/month, that would assume labor
>is actually 100 days. But that still seems awfully long just for cut and
>sew (essentially) thick leather. I'm willing to cut the time by a third
>(round to 30 days, or one month) to call it a "luxury" peice...any armorer
>who has the chance to make it can make one and then relax the next 60
>That's enough for this tome. The other items of Question are TEETH and
>BONES. Any suggestions there?
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